Investigation of Rudy Giuliani is “very active”

I suppose this is true, but doesn’t matter.

Giuliani now exists in a hazy and bizarre Twilight Zone in which none of his criminal actions matter from the beginning of time until January 19th, as long as he doesn’t break any state or local laws.

First of all, if he committed Federal crimes in the past, Trump can pardon him for those.

But more significantly, Rudy may NOW commit any federal crimes he wants to commit. He is quite literally above the law, because any federal crimes he commits between now and January 19th can be pardoned by Trump as he exits – even if Rudy commits those crimes on Trump’s behalf!

All of that sounds incredible, yet it is completely legal and constitutional. (Basically a variant of this already happened with Roger Stone, who committed crimes on Trump’s behalf, then was pardoned by Trump.) Trump and Rudy can now exploit a loophole in the American legal system. The normal constitutional remedy for this type of behavior on the part of the President is impeachment, but there is simply no time to pull that off with a lame duck President. Our founding fathers gave us no mechanism to deal with a President corrupt enough to take that kind of advantage of his final days in office. Apparently they could never imagine that a scoundrel of that magnitude could win the office.

Similarly, it doesn’t matter whether Trump can pardon himself. He doesn’t need to as long as Pence is on board. The same sort of loophole applies to him. He can commit any Federal crime he wants to between now and January 19th, as long as he steps down that day and allows President Pence to be sworn in and issue a Nixon-style pardon to Trump. That’s perfectly constitutional, and comes with an unchallenged precedent in Ford’s pardon of Nixon. The only question is whether Pence is willing to be a faithful lapdog. I guess you can forgive the Founding Fathers for missing this one, because they did not create a system in which the President and Vice-President would be partners. In the 1796 and 1800 elections, they were opponents. (Second highest number of electors became VP). It was not until the 12th Amendment in 1804, about 16 years after the ratification of the Constitution and nearly 30 years after the Declaration of Independence, that the modern system became operative.

11 thoughts on “Investigation of Rudy Giuliani is “very active”

  1. Can all of these grifters and lawbreakers just close the spigot on their lawless behavior on January 19th? I doubt it. If I were them, though, I’d tread very carefully. You will be watched, and you may be nabbed for something relatively minor, in retribution for something bigger that you got away with or were pardoned for. Like OJ.

  2. It’s not much different than Bush I pardoning Oliver North and friends.

    (Not excusing it, just saying that Bush should get a lot more shit for it.)

    1. It’s always the Republicans who need politically motivated pardons, isn’t it? That speaks volumes about them.

  3. Wheeeewwwww!! All this gaming out of scenarios is exhausting and depressing. If I’ve only learned one thing from four years of Trump: you come out ahead if you just wait, see what actually happens, then swear at THAT.
    I might have to get one of those countdown-to-Trump-gone advent calendars I keep hearing about. Maybe one with a shot of tequila for each day…

  4. On the possibility of a Trump resignation/Pence pardon, while technically legal, I think it’s highly unlikely. Pence has missed few opportunities to praise Trump in public. But I really doubt he sincerely admires the idiot. If Pence went along with with a pardon scheme like like that he could kiss any political future goodbye. Much as he might have liked to be the 46th president, I doubt he would want the Jupiter size asterisk. Then again, I didn’t think Trump could win in 2016, so I could be wrong.

    I think Trump would probably be willing to pardon Giuliani if Giuliani asked him for a pardon. But the problem is that by accepting a pardon you are kind of admitting you committed a crime. That would be an issue with a pardon issued by a president Pence as well. Now I don’t know what crimes Giuliani may have committed and he may well want a pardon. I think it’s sad though. I used to have a great deal of admiration for Mayor Giuliani. But I used to admire Bernie Kerik (the NYPD Commissioner on 9/11) as well and he went to prison. So maybe Rudy will get to go as well. If he is guilty he deserves it.

    1. MMc could be right. On the other hand, his argument relies on a major Trump appointee having a shred of decency, and placing concern about the country over loyalty to Trump. I have my doubts about that.

      Pence already has no political future separate from Trump’s, so that is a point FOR him pardoning Trump, not against.

      People are arguing about whether accepting a pardon means admitting guilt, just as they are arguing about the effect on Fifth Amendment rights. I have no idea how valid those arguments are, and no doubt they would have to settled in court.

  5. The one thing I’d worry about if I was Giuliani is that he’d need to rely on Trump actually pardoning him. As Trump has demonstrated over and over, it doesn’t matter how loyal someone was to him for the past few years. If Giuliani says the wrong thing five minutes before Trump signs the pardon, then too bad for Rudy.

    1. If Trump does NOT pardon Rudy, then the Feds can threaten him with prosecution in order to get him to roll over on Trump.

      If I understand correctly, if Trump pardons Giuliani, then Rudy cannot claim Fifth Amendment protection when it comes to testifying against Trump. (There seems to be a debate about this, so this could be quite wrong.)

      This seems like it would create quite the dilemma for Donald. I suppose that he will issue a pardon conditional on Rudy not testifying against him.

      Yes, I know that is almost certainly not a thing. Tell Trump.

      I also suppose that immunity for Federal crimes does not affect Rudy’s testimony in state prosecutions of Trump, which is the only way Trump is likely to go to jail. I still like to imagine Trump doing this to Rudy.

      1. The biggest obstacle to getting Rudy to testify against Trump is the attorney client privilege. There are a number of exceptions to the privilege. But It is significantly easier to prove an exception applies if the lawyer is actively cooperating with you. Take Michael Cohen as an example. If Rudy is trying not to cooperate it may be difficult to force him unless you have something with which you can threaten him. That is why a blanket pardon would probably make it much harder to get Rudy to testify against Trump.

  6. The only hope of any sort of justice for these crooks is very likely going to come from the state of New York, and I would expect that to occur at some point for Trump based on tax evasion.

    I’m sure with Rudy though, he won’t wait very long to break another federal law. I’ve got the over/under at February 1st next year.

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